Think it's time to build

[RAF74_Stew]

S! Squad

Well, I think it is time to build a new rig. I am finding the game almost unplayable with the big DF maps and TIR. Last night during the first mission the stutters were bad. Between missions I dialed back graphics and tried a QMB and it was smooth as silk. Went back in for the next FS mission and things were no better than before. It has come down to the simple fact my 6 year old rig can no longer handle the new stuff being thrown at it.

Like Buzz and others, I have been fighting the need to upgrade because of the upcoming release of SOW. However, it's time to bite the bullet. Besides I have a theory about SOW and hardware: The engine has already been built (a year + ago?), IL-2 was much more CPU intensive verses GPU like many games, so the reasoning is by the time the game launches it won't be as big a resource monster as Oleg was saying back in '08. Certainly it will take a strong GPU to run but vid cards can be easily upgraded. Don't know if this will prove to be the case but I'm not going to limp along for a year waiting to find out :)

What I have spec'd out:


CPU: Intel Core i7-860 Lynnfield 2.8GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 95W Quad
Mobo: MSI P55-GD80 LGA 1156 Intel P55 ATX Intel Motherboard
Memory: OCZ Platinum 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666)
Vid: SAPPHIRE 100283L Radeon HD 5770 (Juniper XT) 1GB 128-bit GDDR5
Sound: Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer
O/S: Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
HD: Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS 150GB 10000 RPM 16MB Cache


Any thoughts would be appreciated.

The HD frankly has me the most conflicted. The flash-based SSDs are too expensive still but I want good speed and reliability. The Velociraptor provides this in exchange for a small size. Plan B would be to get a WD 1TB caviar black. Any other favorites that you use?

Thanks

Stew

[RAF74 LoyalNine]

Salute Stew -

I recently did a build myself. I decided to go with the AMD 965BE chip as it was quite a bit less expensive at the time and I was disgusted at Intels thuglike business practices.

I did get an MSI 790FX-GD70 motherboard and I cannot say enough good things about it. I will definatly not hesitate to go with MSI again! My MSI board is amazing... its definatley built for power users. VERY Good choice IMO.

The only word of caution I would advise is teh OCZ Ram. I heard great stuff about it. SO I ordered 2 - 4gb sets (2x2gb sticks each) of DDR3 1600 Platinum ram. I had to return both orders from New Egg as all but a couple of the sticks arrived bad. I was having all sorts of issues and ended up running MemTest 86 on them. If I recall correctly only 2 of the 8 sticks (remember I had to RMA the first 4 sticks... and the second set of 4 sticks) were good. I decided to go witrh GSKIll DDR3 RAM at the advice of a friend and they work like a charm. They were a tad less expensive as well. I will never buy OCZ again - at least not their DDR3 RAM.

I think teh Velociaptor is the way to go right now. SSD is just too expensive ATM for my tatse and will prbably be 1/2 the price it is now this time next year.

Your gonna have a smokin' rig.

[RAF74_Murdock]

I think you will like that 5770. That is the exact model I'll be snagging from xmas moola too. For the price, you just can't beat it.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute Stew

I already have a faster system than Stew, (a dual core P4, not exactly cutting edge, but better than Stew's dinosaur) and I recently added more RAM and a updated video card, (ATI 4850) so I am not going to buy a new system yet, although I have to admit I am feeling the pressure. But I am going to be spending a good $10,000 on my vacation coming up, so I am going to economize on the computer for a while.

The issue of Hard Drives Stew mentions is also one which I am wondering about for future reference. Obviously nice to go with a higher speed drive, but the size of the storage space is very limited. Any comments from those more knowledgeable would be welcome. For example, wondering about the efficacy of a faster smaller main drive to run online games on, with a slower but larger secondary drive, either in external form or in the computer itself to run offline games, slower apps, and for storage.

[RAF74_SnakeEyes]

Im not sure if you want to up the amount of ram. I got 64bit windows 7 with 4 gig and its running at about 30% with with just explorer. Im not sure if thats normal but I am thinking about getting more ram.

[RAF74_Winger]

....wondering about the efficacy of a faster smaller main drive to run online games on, with a slower but larger secondary drive, either in external form or in the computer itself to run offline games, slower apps, and for storage.

S! Buzz,

I've been considering this too, the conclusion I came to was that I would just continue with the 500Mb drive I'm using at the moment, which is pretty fast anyway, until these SSD drives have come down in price a bit and have the majority of the bugs worked out, and then add an SSD for the OS & games only. I expect this to happen in the next 6-12 months or so, just in time for SOW.

W.

[RAF74_Stew]

Great feedback guys-

Loyal- I have always bought Corsair for my rigs. I saw OCZ recommended, but yours is not the first feedback I have heard about quality. I may have to rethink this.

Snake- I kind of have the same concern. The Socket 1156 chip (I7 860 and the new I5 CPUs) is dual channel and the mobos supporting it come with 2 dual channel dimms. Given that the largest RAM sticks are now 2gig that means an effective ceiling of 4gb. By contrast, the Socket 1366 (ie I7 920) is tripple channel which means you can install up to 6 gig of RAM. While the 920 costs the same as an 860 the mobos are about $100 more. The 1156 chips are more efficient and will likely be the basis of future upgrades. All that being said, I don't like being capped at 4gb! :)

Murdock- Thanks for the confirmation on the vid card. I am not an ATI fan boy but the timing of my rig builds has resulted in me choosing their cards for the past 10 years. PS- hope you are feeling better!

Buzz/Winger- I have hd info oozing out of my brain. LOL

In a nutshell, you have:

1. SSDs- The Intel X-25 is the best on the market, but 80gigs costs $300 bucks on New Egg (went up $10 today!). This is more than the MSRP... Windows boots in a matter of seconds, no moving parts, good power consumption no heat, etc. However, beyond the expense you pretty much have to have a backup drive to handle programs beyond the OS and games. There were some cache issues on earlier SSDs but Windows 7 trim command pretty well eliminates these. Those of us who upgrade two years from now will be laughing at the poor schmucks still running magnetic hds.

2. 10,000rpm drives. Very good speed, if not as fast as the SSDs. With speed comes heat, power consumption, and shorter hd life. This is the main reason I plan on buying the Retail version of W7 instead of the OEM, which I have done in the past. Much easier to re-install. I think 150 gig gives me room to load all the games and programs I'll need, but you'll still need a backup drive for pictures and such. Given the expected shorter life of this drive I think a backup drive is a must for important files.

3. Conventional 7200rpm hds. If going this route I think the WD Caviar Black series is the way to go. They have 32mb of cache (8 or 16 is typical today) and a 5 year warranty. And for $70 you can get a 500 gig "black" from New Egg. You can get 1 and even 2 TB drives but these are overkill for a guy like me who really only wants to fly with his mates and have enough room for Mrs Stew to store her pictures.

This thread has helped crystalize my thoughts: Frankly the question is do I "tread water" with a respectable 7200 drive until SSDs come down in price or spend twice as much to get 10,000 rpms and do the same in X months when SSDs come down in price?

Thanks, fellas! Looks like I will have to chew a bit more :)

Stew

[RAF74_SnakeEyes]

:

1. SSDs- The Intel X-25 is the best on the market, but 80gigs costs $300 bucks on New Egg (went up $10 today!). This is more than the MSRP... Windows boots in a matter of seconds, no moving parts, good power consumption no heat, etc. However, beyond the expense you pretty much have to have a backup drive to handle programs beyond the OS and games. There were some cache issues on earlier SSDs but Windows 7 trim command pretty well eliminates these. Those of us who upgrade two years from now will be laughing at the poor schmucks still running magnetic hds.


Stew

I have found that Amazon.com has prittymuch the lowest price for everything check there before you buy stuff. Also I have had no problems with returns with them.
Intel X-25 $249 with free shipping http://www.amazon.com/Intel-Mainstream-Solid-Retail-SSDSA2MH080G2R5/dp/B002IJA1EG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1260731383&sr=8-5

[RAF74_Dharmaboy]

Stew,
I would go with Loyal on the OCZ RAM. I have heard many people have been hit/miss with the RAM, where it was unstable or did not OverCLock like it was supposed to.

I have used ATI Cards exclusively till I made the switch to nVidia and haven't looked back.

[RAF74_SnakeEyes]

Stew,
I would go with Loyal on the OCZ RAM. I have heard many people have been hit/miss with the RAM, where it was unstable or did not OverCLock like it was supposed to.

I have used ATI Cards exclusively till I made the switch to nVidia and haven't looked back.

I have found nvidia cards are easyer to work with updating and everything. There was allways issues with drivers for my ati card. Not that it didnt work but just wouldent update right.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute

Here's another reason why I am not buying now, Oleg in his typical Olegish:


Originally posted by Oleg:
I really think that if you are witing only for our title, then don't by newst card. Better to ait when they will be cheaper at least. And to buy if planned just before release of BoB or a bit later

[RAF74_Stew]

Well, over the weekend I broke down and bought the parts for my new rig. Must admit your feedback got me thinking and re-thinking whether I was taking the right route in building a system that would last awhile, offer strong performance today, and be able to handle SOW with modest upgrading. I have read probably hundreds of posts on various forums, read hundreds of reviews on NewEgg, and sifted through countless vendor sites. Needless to say, I now know enough the be very dangerous (to myself) :)

Here's what I wound up with:

CPU- Intel I-7 860
RAM- G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800). Cheap and well-regarded by enthusiasts.
Mobo- MSI P55-GD65. Mid-range version of GD80. I don't plan on overclocking but if I ever do this will be good enough
Video: SAPPHIRE 100283-2L Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5. $30 cheaper than the Juniper but more than enough to do what I need today.
O/S: Windows 7 Home Premium
Case: Coolmaster HAF922. Wound up doing more research on the case than any other component! Concerned about noise, especially with the raptor, but it certainly will not overheat.

I went a bit downstream on the vid card and mobo from what I was originally planning. Further, the reviews on the mobo indicate it has great sound so I am going to forgo the sound card for now. Took the difference and went with a 300gig Velociraptor. I had a WD caviar black HD picked out and ready to buy but just wanted to splurge and see if the Velociraptor was worth the money. Given that it will be the last OS hard drive I will ever buy figured it made sense to go out with a bang.

Thanks again for the feedback, guys. I expect to build it this weekend and will let you know how it goes.

Stew

[RAF74 LoyalNine]

That is great Stew. Sounds like you are gonna have a rocket on your hands... I have the Coolermaster Cosmos case. It's titanically big though. They are very nice cases for sure. I like the looks of the Haf case you got better.

[RAF74_Winger]

Looks good to me Stew.

If you ever do decide to overclock, the 860 seems to have plenty of headroom by the reviews I've read (4GHz has been reported frequently), and the memory you've chosen will make it easy for you.

W.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute Stew

It would seem to me that the key in buying a system which can be upgraded, is to get a motherboard which can handle the latest gen processors, even if you don't buy the best possible CPU now. That way later you can buy a better processor. Same goes with vid cards, make sure your motherboard can accept the best quality cards, and also that it can accept multiple cards.

---

It looks like I am going to be buying a new rig myself, although not a desktop.

My trip to India has expanded to include a portable digital Video camera and shooting a documentary, as well as news material for my station, (you can tell I am a workaholic ;) so much for being a bum and lazing away the vacation) and I need storage and editing for the digital files the camera produces, and my current laptop is not fast enough to run the files I will be using, so I will be buying a new laptop.

Question now is whether it is an Apple or Windows, the files the camera produce are native Quicktime, and Apple can run the video editing program easier, but then I'd have to go Apple on an editing system back home when I get back.

At the moment looking for a Windows based editing program which handles professional quality Quicktime .mov files, otherwise I need to go Apple. Looking at Avid Pinnacle Liquid, see if that will work.

[RAF74_Bimmer]

Buzz, it's a long shot, but you might try putting a Linux install on your current laptop to see if it gives you the performance necessary. I've only begun fooling around with it, but it really boosted the performance of my Asus netbook. I used Ubuntu, which is quite user-friendly. If you use Wubi ( http://wubi-installer.org/ ) you can install it (and uninstall it, importantly) from inside Windows, and you get a boot menu to allow you to switch easily between the two at start-up. A cursory search shows there are a number of Quicktime packages out there for Linux, though I don't know if any of them are capable of doing what you need. Anyway, just a thought.

[RAF74_Stew]

I said I knew enough to be dangerous :) Here's the lowdown on Intel chips- AMD is out of game for the forseeable future:

The Lynnfield processors were introduced 9/09 and use the 1156 chip socket. These include the I5 and I7 860. They are dual channel chips, hence are recommended to run with 2x2gig of RAM. Going to 8gig seems to be overkill. In benchmark tests the 860 outperforms the I7 920 in gaming. The socket P55 mobos are also cheaper and you need less RAM.

The Bloomfield is the I7 (i.e. 920, 975 family). It uses P-58 architecture and a 1366 chip socket. It is tri-channel so you will need 6 gig of RAM and the mobos are quite a bit more expensive. I figure it would have added about $120 in total cost to my rig.

However...

The new 6 core Gulftown will be out Q2 of this year. It will the same 1366 chip which means that a P58 mobo bought for your 920 can be used later down the road. This is a very viable option to consider to have future upgradability. The future of the 1156 is somewhat murkier. However, my view was that the $ difference, fact the 860 is a very strong performer for gaming, and questions around whether software would catch up with 6 cores in gaming applications made it a pretty straightforward decision.

I by no means wanted to imply that I am building a super rig that will last several years. By most standards I will have a solid middle of the road machine. However, with a later SSD and better vid card I think it might just come close to lasting about as long as the current dinosaur. All I care about now is being able to use TIR while flying in perfect mode with my mates :)

Good luck on the laptop, Buzz. Fortunately, owning an Apple now doesn't limit you the way it used to. Where you going in India? I have spent a fair amount of time in Bangalore and Dheli and it was a terrific experience.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Where you going in India? I have spent a fair amount of time in Bangalore and Dheli and it was a terrific experience.

Flight lands in Mumbai, (Bombay's new name) I pick up the motorcycle in Mumbai, and then head south to Goa by train, (motorcycle goes on train), then on from Goa south to Kerala province and the Southwest tip of India by road and motorcycle, turning the corner, heading back up the SouthEast coast to Madras, (called Chennai now) then the motorcycle goes back on the train to Orissa province, and then again by motorcycle on to Kolkata, (Calcutta's new name) on by motorcycle to Sikkim, Bhutan and the Eastern Himalaya's, then the motorcycle goes on the train from Sikkim to Uttarakand in the North, and then by motorcycle in and around the Western Himalayan area. Then by train back to Mumbai, and fly out. Not going to do the usual tourist spots, staying away from the Taj Mahal, Delhi, and all the scams and scumbags there. Staying as short a time as possible in Mumbai, focusing on staying in the countryside and smaller towns, taking the secondary roads where the traffic is at a minimum.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute

Here is a High Def video of a motorcyclist on a Royal Enfield in the Himalaya's:

http://vimeo.com/8453716

He is actually using the same kind of camera I am taking, a Canon 5D Mk II still camera:





This camera actually shoot video, does an incredible job because of its huge CMOS sensor. There can be some problems with rolling shutter and artifacts, because it is not solely designed to be a video camera and doesn't have a low pass filter to compensate, but it can produce amazing images. The motorcycle video is pretty amateur, here are some more precisely shot images, the following about the US Navy Rescue service:

http://shanehurlbut.smugmug.com/Other/Commercial-Work/10407982_4tLPd/1/722788170_xb8Uw#723087083_EeWCJ-A-LB

A pulitzer prize winning still photographer, Vincent Laforet is a big fan of the 5D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfUUySn3y7w

Another great short, really illustrates the low capability of this camera. (as you can tell, I am really excited about this camera... ;) )

http://vimeo.com/8256984

Another video, shot documentary style, in Afghanistan by an embedded American journalist, all with available light.

Illustrates in a very short time how difficult it is to win the war there. If we are going to do that, we need to avoid alienating the population.

This documentary looks like a feature film this camera is so good. Documentary is coming out soon.

http://vimeo.com/6995256

[RAF74 LoyalNine]

Buzz - this documentary you are doing. Is it a personal project or something your employer is sending you out on? Whats it gonna be about?

Thats a very sweet camera Buzz. I have a couple of D300's and due to my stable of lenses will probably remain a Nikon guy for some time. I am waiting for teh next gen of teh D700 to come out. I have been shooting weddings and planning to do more. The high ISO capability will be a welcome addition. I, myself have no need for video - but like the idea of it.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Buzz, it's a long shot, but you might try putting a Linux install on your current laptop to see if it gives you the performance necessary.

Salute Winger

Thanks for the suggestion, but my old laptop is ancient, its a Toshiba with a old style Celeron 1.4 gig processor and no video card. I should have replaced it long ago, but only used it for storing stills and word processing, now I need to be able to edit, which requires processor power and a video card.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Buzz - this documentary you are doing. Is it a personal project or something your employer is sending you out on? Whats it gonna be about?

Salute Loyal

Originally I was just going to bring a still camera with me, space being an issue on a motorcycle.

But then I found out about the Canon, and the possibilities that offers.

I will be shooting some short new items some of which will likely go on CBC-TV news, depending how much I focus on them, one for example, the contrasts in Mumbai between the wealth and the poverty, another on Mother Teresa's hospice for street people in Calcutta, and a number of others ideas.

The other part is a personal documentary of my own impressions and experiences of touring India, not sure if it will be commercial, or what, but want to capture my impressions, interviews with people I meet, my buddies, etc.

This camera is not really sound capable on its own, the sound quality through the camera's recorder is quite limited quality, for that reason I am bringing a portable digital sound recorder, a ZOOM H4N, along with some of my own Mics.

[RAF74_Stew]

S! Buzz

Good show. The metro scene in India is pretty much the same; the one exception being the capital district in Dehli. It is very impressive. The rest is one big traffic jam. Our concept of driving etiquette is out the window. You'll quickly learn this :)

I truly enjoyed the experience out in the country. Don't expect to hit North American speeds on the roads but I envy you being able to do this on a motorcycle. Have a friend who lives in Chennai and she says it is beautiful. Taj Mahal was a tourist trap as we'd refer to it here in the South.

Look forward to getting a report.